• Dot and Bubble analysis

    From Don Macron@notemmanuel@mail.fr to rec.arts.drwho on Mon Dec 1 17:08:49 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    What are your opinions about this episode?

    My understanding this was originally intended to be a Matt Smith and
    Karen Gillan episode, set during season 6, and it was later adapted for
    the Disney reboot. That means that the original plot twist would have involved not racism, but xenophobia/tribalism.

    It's clear the Doctor was more pushy and condescending, while his
    companion took a softer approach. This explains why Lindy reacted
    differently to them. Plus, the Doctor committed the horrible "crime" of bumping Ricky September off her feed during her morning routine.

    Of course, in the Gatwa version, the conventional wisdom is that the
    audience is supposed to *infer* that all the Finetimers are horribly
    racist people and every interaction between them and the Doctor was
    "racist". However, this is never made explicit in the episode itself.
    All of the dialogue would still work just as functionally if they were rejecting the Doctor for the same reasons they would have in the Smith
    script (he's an Outsider, he's older, he's not human).

    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to
    parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that
    demographic.

    That said, the episode raises some interesting questions which are
    possibly beyond the intellect of the specific audience that it was
    pandering to. Particularly, did Lindey become "irredeemable" when she directed the phantasm ball to kill Ricky instead of her? It's easy for
    those who've never actually been in a life-or-death situation to condemn
    her, but how many people can honestly say they know for 100% sure they wouldn't have reacted the same way in a split second while in full Fight
    or Flight mode?

    How much of her behavior at the end of the episode was informed by her shock/PTSD/denial/guilt over what had just happened to her?

    In almost every review I've read, people seem to be cheering on the idea
    that all of the young people in this episode died horrible deaths. It's
    very strange that a Doctor Who story would intend to provoke this type
    of reaction in its audience. The episode itself does not endorse this
    view, but it was left open ended as to what actually happened to them (although the Doctor says/believes they'll die, but the audience was
    never shown why he's so confident of that).

    I have a theory that the overrideing reason why many viewers wished
    horrible deaths upon the Finetimers is because they saw a lot of
    themselves in them, and it hit too close to home.

    In retrospect, this felt like it was a "setup" episode, to be followed
    up later with a possible twist of Lindey either being redeemed or
    becoming a new recurring villain. There was also still the loose end of
    how Brewster survived, even though his name was towards the beginning of
    the list. What little we saw of him reminded me of Conrad.
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  • From doctor@doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) to rec.arts.drwho on Mon Dec 1 18:21:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    Don Macron <notemmanuel@mail.fr> wrote:
    What are your opinions about this episode?

    My understanding this was originally intended to be a Matt Smith and
    Karen Gillan episode, set during season 6, and it was later adapted for
    the Disney reboot. That means that the original plot twist would have >involved not racism, but xenophobia/tribalism.

    It's clear the Doctor was more pushy and condescending, while his
    companion took a softer approach. This explains why Lindy reacted >differently to them. Plus, the Doctor committed the horrible "crime" of >bumping Ricky September off her feed during her morning routine.

    Of course, in the Gatwa version, the conventional wisdom is that the >audience is supposed to *infer* that all the Finetimers are horribly
    racist people and every interaction between them and the Doctor was >"racist". However, this is never made explicit in the episode itself.
    All of the dialogue would still work just as functionally if they were >rejecting the Doctor for the same reasons they would have in the Smith >script (he's an Outsider, he's older, he's not human).

    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to >parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow, >especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that >demographic.

    That said, the episode raises some interesting questions which are
    possibly beyond the intellect of the specific audience that it was
    pandering to. Particularly, did Lindey become "irredeemable" when she >directed the phantasm ball to kill Ricky instead of her? It's easy for >those who've never actually been in a life-or-death situation to condemn >her, but how many people can honestly say they know for 100% sure they >wouldn't have reacted the same way in a split second while in full Fight
    or Flight mode?

    How much of her behavior at the end of the episode was informed by her >shock/PTSD/denial/guilt over what had just happened to her?

    In almost every review I've read, people seem to be cheering on the idea >that all of the young people in this episode died horrible deaths. It's >very strange that a Doctor Who story would intend to provoke this type
    of reaction in its audience. The episode itself does not endorse this
    view, but it was left open ended as to what actually happened to them >(although the Doctor says/believes they'll die, but the audience was
    never shown why he's so confident of that).

    I have a theory that the overrideing reason why many viewers wished
    horrible deaths upon the Finetimers is because they saw a lot of
    themselves in them, and it hit too close to home.

    In retrospect, this felt like it was a "setup" episode, to be followed
    up later with a possible twist of Lindey either being redeemed or
    becoming a new recurring villain. There was also still the loose end of
    how Brewster survived, even though his name was towards the beginning of
    the list. What little we saw of him reminded me of Conrad.

    4/10
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2025 and Happy New Year 2026
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  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.com to rec.arts.drwho on Mon Dec 1 15:00:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that demographic.


    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    Melissa

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  • From Don Macron@notemmanuel@mail.fr to rec.arts.drwho on Mon Dec 1 22:15:56 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote in news:MPG.4397bdd6a76db614989761@news.eternal-september.org:

    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose
    to parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and
    shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to
    that demographic.

    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.

    Indeed. The tacked on racism makes it easy to pretend the story is only
    about that specific type of tribe/bubble/echo chamber, as opposed to how
    all groupthink bubbles are problematic.
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  • From The True Doctor@agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM to rec.arts.drwho on Mon Dec 1 23:57:21 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    On 01/12/2025 20:00, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to
    parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow,
    especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that
    demographic.


    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    You mean losing 6/7 of the entire audience by projecting the writer's
    own disgusting bigotry and hate onto it?


    Melissa

    --
    The True Doctor https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCngrZwoS0n21IRcXpKO79Lw

    "To be woke is to be uninformed which is exactly the opposite of what it stands for." --William Shatner
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  • From doctor@doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) to rec.arts.drwho on Tue Dec 2 04:33:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <MPG.4397bdd6a76db614989761@news.eternal-september.org>,
    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to
    parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow,
    especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that
    demographic.


    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    Melissa


    IT was a semi-average dud.
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2025 and Happy New Year 2026
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  • From doctor@doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) to rec.arts.drwho on Tue Dec 2 04:37:14 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <10gl42r$3gotp$1@dont-email.me>,
    Don Macron <notemmanuel@mail.fr> wrote:
    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote in >news:MPG.4397bdd6a76db614989761@news.eternal-september.org:

    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose
    to parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and
    shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to
    that demographic.

    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.

    Indeed. The tacked on racism makes it easy to pretend the story is only >about that specific type of tribe/bubble/echo chamber, as opposed to how
    all groupthink bubbles are problematic.

    groupthink in najor terms.
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2025 and Happy New Year 2026
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  • From doctor@doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) to rec.arts.drwho on Tue Dec 2 04:37:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <10gla15$1qlb6$2@dont-email.me>,
    The True Doctor <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
    On 01/12/2025 20:00, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose to
    parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and shallow, >>> especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to that
    demographic.


    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    You mean losing 6/7 of the entire audience by projecting the writer's
    own disgusting bigotry and hate onto it?


    84% to 85% loss.


    Melissa


    --
    The True Doctor https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCngrZwoS0n21IRcXpKO79Lw

    "To be woke is to be uninformed which is exactly the opposite of what it >stands for." --William Shatner
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2025 and Happy New Year 2026
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  • From Don Macron@notemmanuel@mail.fr to rec.arts.drwho on Tue Dec 2 14:55:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    The True Doctor <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in news:10gla15$1qlb6$2@dont-email.me:

    On 01/12/2025 20:00, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose
    to parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and
    shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to
    that demographic.

    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    You mean losing 6/7 of the entire audience by projecting the writer's
    own disgusting bigotry and hate onto it?

    I'd like to give RTD the benefit of the doubt and hope that he's not a
    bigot, but that he's aware that many of the people who support the same progressive ideas that he does are in a hyper-cynical place. Then
    again, maybe he really is that hyper-cynical and also thinks anyone on
    the internet he disagrees with deserves to die a horrible death, just
    like Jonathan Blum does. However, that scene in the Reality War between
    Ruby and Conrad suggests that he doesn't entirely have a black and
    white, us vs them mentality.
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  • From doctor@doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) to rec.arts.drwho on Tue Dec 2 15:46:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.drwho

    In article <10gmuk6$3j2n4$1@dont-email.me>,
    Don Macron <notemmanuel@mail.fr> wrote:
    The True Doctor <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in >news:10gla15$1qlb6$2@dont-email.me:

    On 01/12/2025 20:00, The True Melissa wrote:
    In article <10gki31$1h5to$1@dont-email.me>,
    notemmanuel@mail.fr says...
    Putting the tacked on racism angle aside, it's ironic that RTD chose
    to parody and lampoon an entire age demographic as being vapid and
    shallow, especially when the show was supposedly trying to appeal to
    that demographic.

    It's the "you're different" pitch. "*Most* people in your
    category are terrible, but you're special." It's amazing
    how far you can get by insulting *the other* members of a
    group to which the listener/viewer belongs.


    You mean losing 6/7 of the entire audience by projecting the writer's
    own disgusting bigotry and hate onto it?

    I'd like to give RTD the benefit of the doubt and hope that he's not a >bigot, but that he's aware that many of the people who support the same >progressive ideas that he does are in a hyper-cynical place. Then
    again, maybe he really is that hyper-cynical and also thinks anyone on
    the internet he disagrees with deserves to die a horrible death, just
    like Jonathan Blum does. However, that scene in the Reality War between >Ruby and Conrad suggests that he doesn't entirely have a black and
    white, us vs them mentality.

    Gridlock shows RTD's anti-Christian bigotry.
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2025 and Happy New Year 2026
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