• Pining for the fjords; socialists never learn

    From Adam H. Kerman@ahk@chinet.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 05:42:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    Two videos on similar subjects showed up in my feed.

    What happened when Norway raised taxes on the wealthy?
    Money & Macro
    June 23, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJttqFCWtQM

    Socialists Never Learn
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    July 3, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K1z-cUMqpk

    The taxes imposed by Norway appeared to be a personal property tax on
    the properties of its wealthiest citizens, whereas Rees-Mogg is
    criticizing Andy Burnham for considering a capital gains tax rate
    increase. Both have similar prooblems, even though one is on unrealized
    gains and the other is on realized gains.

    Norway's wealth tax was in existence for a century. A small business's
    capital and a new business were not taxed due to unknown market value.
    IP and "good will" were not valued for tax purpose. Interestingly,
    buildings in business use and single-family homes were exempt, but they
    did tax the value of securities and bank accounts. A small rate hike was imposed in 2022.

    Norway billionaires are simply off-shoring both their assets and their
    persons to escape EXIT taxation, in which wealth is taxed at 38% and
    companies are valued based on the valuation of share transactions i both private and public. They eliminated the rule that shares not sold for 5
    years after leaving were not taxed. This is what caused the exodus. The government didn't realize any if the assyne gains in tax revenue.

    Rees-Mogg offers an interesting statistic that tax collection levels out
    at 38% of GDP because raising taxes so heavily influences behavior.
    Again, the higher rate of tax collection won't work.

    He drives me crazy and, while I like him very much, I disagree about his politics. I absolutely agree with the description of the problems he
    stated for the first 8 minutes, but in proposing his solution --
    draatically reduce government spending on social welfare because it's "profitable" to live on the dole gets it very very wrong. He completely
    ignores his own problem statement that one serious result of raising
    taxes on business, and raising capital gains taxes so high that new
    business startups are actively discourraged, has the anticipated
    consequence of reducing employment and economic activity generally.

    If one could eeasily find employment that pays a living wage and support
    a family, one would not be on the dole.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rhino@no_offline_contact@example.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 10:02:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On 2026-07-05 1:42 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Two videos on similar subjects showed up in my feed.

    What happened when Norway raised taxes on the wealthy?
    Money & Macro
    June 23, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJttqFCWtQM

    Socialists Never Learn
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    July 3, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K1z-cUMqpk

    The taxes imposed by Norway appeared to be a personal property tax on
    the properties of its wealthiest citizens, whereas Rees-Mogg is
    criticizing Andy Burnham for considering a capital gains tax rate
    increase. Both have similar prooblems, even though one is on unrealized
    gains and the other is on realized gains.

    Norway's wealth tax was in existence for a century. A small business's capital and a new business were not taxed due to unknown market value.
    IP and "good will" were not valued for tax purpose. Interestingly,
    buildings in business use and single-family homes were exempt, but they
    did tax the value of securities and bank accounts. A small rate hike was imposed in 2022.

    Norway billionaires are simply off-shoring both their assets and their persons to escape EXIT taxation, in which wealth is taxed at 38% and companies are valued based on the valuation of share transactions i both private and public. They eliminated the rule that shares not sold for 5
    years after leaving were not taxed. This is what caused the exodus. The government didn't realize any if the assyne gains in tax revenue.

    Rees-Mogg offers an interesting statistic that tax collection levels out
    at 38% of GDP because raising taxes so heavily influences behavior.
    Again, the higher rate of tax collection won't work.

    He drives me crazy and, while I like him very much, I disagree about his politics. I absolutely agree with the description of the problems he
    stated for the first 8 minutes, but in proposing his solution --
    draatically reduce government spending on social welfare because it's "profitable" to live on the dole gets it very very wrong. He completely ignores his own problem statement that one serious result of raising
    taxes on business, and raising capital gains taxes so high that new
    business startups are actively discourraged, has the anticipated
    consequence of reducing employment and economic activity generally.

    If one could eeasily find employment that pays a living wage and support
    a family, one would not be on the dole.

    Rees-Mogg does short (under 10 minute) videos almost every day of the
    week and regularly appears in longer ones. He also does a "Moggologue"
    on GBNews every weeknight. I watch the former every day and occasionally dabble in the latter so it's clear to me from things Rees-Mogg says -
    and that I've seen asserted by at least one other observer that I
    respect - that there is a proportion of people living in the UK, both native-born and migrant, that is perfectly content to live on the dole
    and have no desire whatever to work. The dole offers enough that they
    can pursue a life that doesn't involve working and allows them to eat
    and indulge some of their vices, supplemented by criminal income in some cases.

    Rees-Mogg also makes clear that Britain has been de-industrializing for decades, largely as a result of the elites insistence on combatting
    climate change, which largely means exporting all the manufacturing (and associated jobs) to China. Getting a job simply isn't easy because so
    many jobs have already left. The government has so many regulations that operating any sort of business is onerous. Mass migration isn't helping
    the situation with thousands of new people with minimal skills showing
    up every week and having to be housed, fed, and have their medical needs
    met. Britain's GDP has been shrinking for many years and is now much
    smaller than it was vis-a-vis the US. Its military is in an increasingly
    dire state, particularly the once mighty British Navy. Their energy
    prices are among the very highest in the world. Their debt load is
    staggering and its increasingly difficult for them to borrow money.

    That's why Rees-Mogg says the ONLY way forward is to reduce welfare
    benefits so that the economy has a chance to grow.
    --
    Rhino
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam H. Kerman@ahk@chinet.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 16:43:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-05 1:42 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    Two videos on similar subjects showed up in my feed.

    What happened when Norway raised taxes on the wealthy?
    Money & Macro
    June 23, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJttqFCWtQM

    Socialists Never Learn
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    July 3, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K1z-cUMqpk

    The taxes imposed by Norway appeared to be a personal property tax on
    the properties of its wealthiest citizens, whereas Rees-Mogg is
    criticizing Andy Burnham for considering a capital gains tax rate
    increase. Both have similar prooblems, even though one is on unrealized >>gains and the other is on realized gains.

    Norway's wealth tax was in existence for a century. A small business's >>capital and a new business were not taxed due to unknown market value.
    IP and "good will" were not valued for tax purpose. Interestingly, >>buildings in business use and single-family homes were exempt, but they
    did tax the value of securities and bank accounts. A small rate hike was >>imposed in 2022.

    Norway billionaires are simply off-shoring both their assets and their >>persons to escape EXIT taxation, in which wealth is taxed at 38% and >>companies are valued based on the valuation of share transactions i both >>private and public. They eliminated the rule that shares not sold for 5 >>years after leaving were not taxed. This is what caused the exodus. The >>government didn't realize any if the assyne gains in tax revenue.

    Rees-Mogg offers an interesting statistic that tax collection levels out
    at 38% of GDP because raising taxes so heavily influences behavior.
    Again, the higher rate of tax collection won't work.

    He drives me crazy and, while I like him very much, I disagree about his >>politics. I absolutely agree with the description of the problems he
    stated for the first 8 minutes, but in proposing his solution -- >>draatically reduce government spending on social welfare because it's >>"profitable" to live on the dole gets it very very wrong. He completely >>ignores his own problem statement that one serious result of raising
    taxes on business, and raising capital gains taxes so high that new >>business startups are actively discourraged, has the anticipated >>consequence of reducing employment and economic activity generally.

    If one could eeasily find employment that pays a living wage and support
    a family, one would not be on the dole.

    Rees-Mogg does short (under 10 minute) videos almost every day of the
    week and regularly appears in longer ones. He also does a "Moggologue"
    on GBNews every weeknight. I watch the former every day and occasionally >dabble in the latter so it's clear to me from things Rees-Mogg says -
    and that I've seen asserted by at least one other observer that I
    respect - that there is a proportion of people living in the UK, both >native-born and migrant, that is perfectly content to live on the dole
    and have no desire whatever to work. The dole offers enough that they
    can pursue a life that doesn't involve working and allows them to eat
    and indulge some of their vices, supplemented by criminal income in some >cases.

    Rees-Mogg also makes clear that Britain has been de-industrializing for >decades, largely as a result of the elites insistence on combatting
    climate change, which largely means exporting all the manufacturing (and >associated jobs) to China. Getting a job simply isn't easy because so
    many jobs have already left. The government has so many regulations that >operating any sort of business is onerous. Mass migration isn't helping
    the situation with thousands of new people with minimal skills showing
    up every week and having to be housed, fed, and have their medical needs >met. Britain's GDP has been shrinking for many years and is now much
    smaller than it was vis-a-vis the US. Its military is in an increasingly >dire state, particularly the once mighty British Navy. Their energy
    prices are among the very highest in the world. Their debt load is >staggering and its increasingly difficult for them to borrow money.

    That's why Rees-Mogg says the ONLY way forward is to reduce welfare
    benefits so that the economy has a chance to grow.

    Climate change activism is too recent to account for
    de-industrialization. I think it's fair to say that the UK never fully recovered fom the devastation, disruption, and population loss from
    WWII. They had a series of post-war Labour governments that didn't help
    and, I think it''s fair to say that the Tories lost their way and the
    Liberals (classical) pretty much vanished from their national politics.

    They also stopped producing coal, which they largely depleted.

    He's getting the economics wrong. His conclusion is that the only area
    of government spending ro cut is social welfare spending. That's absurd.
    One has to look at every single government program to ask if it's
    intended or unintended consequences are causing more harm than the
    supposed good they are doing.

    He believes that lowering government spending without taking that hard
    look will indirectly lead to lowering cost for business which will in
    turn lead to greater economic activity and hiring.

    Therefore, cut off the social spending first.

    Well, it doesn't work like that. He's deliberately ignoring that he's
    not offering the middle step in his three-part plan.

    Social welfare programs are typically incompetantly administered with ass-backwards incentives. Here's the problem that even Milton Friedman
    got wrong with his Negative Income Tax proposal, which actually got
    implemented as Earned Income Tax Credit. With income taxes, even with a progressive tax structure, there are huge steps that will trip people
    up. The transition offf welfare, even if gradual, makes accepting
    lower-paid work the trigger for a very high marginal tax given the loss
    of welfare benefits.

    Who would accept a job under that circumstance?

    Also, getting off welfare and into the work force is no guarantee that
    one will have a job paying a living wage to support one's family.

    His proposal is every bit as ass-backwards as welfare itself.

    You cannot state that we'll eventually get around to fixing
    overly-burdensome economic costs by reducing government spending. It's
    too late. Government spending is perverse if payment on the national
    debt exceeeds 100% of GDP, something he already noted. Social welfare
    spending is part of it but something far worse has happened.

    If you want the economy to recover fully, you don't say that we'll do
    all these things up front to just reduce government spending. Parliament doesn't have the guts and, sorry, can't annul the interest payments.

    But there are plenty of othe ways to reduce burdensome costs and peverse incentives. DO THOSE FIRST.

    If there is economic expansion and more jobs being offered, then social
    welfare spending will gradally reduce as a positive effect of the
    improved economy.

    But the interest on the national debt cannot be wished away. All you can
    do is stop piling on massive debt next year and then grdually reduce it
    over time.

    He doesn't appear to have either the will or creativity to reduce
    economic burdens up front in a practical way that will work, any more
    than Let's address the very high unwelcome cost of living can be solved
    with ever higher social welfare spending.

    Resurrect the Liberal Party from the dustbin of history would help.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From danny burstein@dannyb@panix.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 17:11:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    In <112e1ja$17qdb$1@dont-email.me> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:

    [snip]

    [snip]

    But the interest on the national debt cannot be wished away. All you can
    do is stop piling on massive debt next year and then grdually reduce it
    over time.

    high inflation rates are a major factor in reducing
    the debt overhang. Of course new bonds, etc.,
    have to offer higher interest rates, but inflation
    takes care of the older stuff
    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
    dannyb@panix.com
    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rhino@no_offline_contact@example.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 13:53:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On 2026-07-05 12:43 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-05 1:42 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    Two videos on similar subjects showed up in my feed.

    What happened when Norway raised taxes on the wealthy?
    Money & Macro
    June 23, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJttqFCWtQM

    Socialists Never Learn
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
    July 3, 2026
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K1z-cUMqpk

    The taxes imposed by Norway appeared to be a personal property tax on
    the properties of its wealthiest citizens, whereas Rees-Mogg is
    criticizing Andy Burnham for considering a capital gains tax rate
    increase. Both have similar prooblems, even though one is on unrealized
    gains and the other is on realized gains.

    Norway's wealth tax was in existence for a century. A small business's
    capital and a new business were not taxed due to unknown market value.
    IP and "good will" were not valued for tax purpose. Interestingly,
    buildings in business use and single-family homes were exempt, but they
    did tax the value of securities and bank accounts. A small rate hike was >>> imposed in 2022.

    Norway billionaires are simply off-shoring both their assets and their
    persons to escape EXIT taxation, in which wealth is taxed at 38% and
    companies are valued based on the valuation of share transactions i both >>> private and public. They eliminated the rule that shares not sold for 5
    years after leaving were not taxed. This is what caused the exodus. The
    government didn't realize any if the assyne gains in tax revenue.

    Rees-Mogg offers an interesting statistic that tax collection levels out >>> at 38% of GDP because raising taxes so heavily influences behavior.
    Again, the higher rate of tax collection won't work.

    He drives me crazy and, while I like him very much, I disagree about his >>> politics. I absolutely agree with the description of the problems he
    stated for the first 8 minutes, but in proposing his solution --
    draatically reduce government spending on social welfare because it's
    "profitable" to live on the dole gets it very very wrong. He completely
    ignores his own problem statement that one serious result of raising
    taxes on business, and raising capital gains taxes so high that new
    business startups are actively discourraged, has the anticipated
    consequence of reducing employment and economic activity generally.

    If one could eeasily find employment that pays a living wage and support >>> a family, one would not be on the dole.

    Rees-Mogg does short (under 10 minute) videos almost every day of the
    week and regularly appears in longer ones. He also does a "Moggologue"
    on GBNews every weeknight. I watch the former every day and occasionally
    dabble in the latter so it's clear to me from things Rees-Mogg says -
    and that I've seen asserted by at least one other observer that I
    respect - that there is a proportion of people living in the UK, both
    native-born and migrant, that is perfectly content to live on the dole
    and have no desire whatever to work. The dole offers enough that they
    can pursue a life that doesn't involve working and allows them to eat
    and indulge some of their vices, supplemented by criminal income in some
    cases.

    Rees-Mogg also makes clear that Britain has been de-industrializing for
    decades, largely as a result of the elites insistence on combatting
    climate change, which largely means exporting all the manufacturing (and
    associated jobs) to China. Getting a job simply isn't easy because so
    many jobs have already left. The government has so many regulations that
    operating any sort of business is onerous. Mass migration isn't helping
    the situation with thousands of new people with minimal skills showing
    up every week and having to be housed, fed, and have their medical needs
    met. Britain's GDP has been shrinking for many years and is now much
    smaller than it was vis-a-vis the US. Its military is in an increasingly
    dire state, particularly the once mighty British Navy. Their energy
    prices are among the very highest in the world. Their debt load is
    staggering and its increasingly difficult for them to borrow money.

    That's why Rees-Mogg says the ONLY way forward is to reduce welfare
    benefits so that the economy has a chance to grow.

    Climate change activism is too recent to account for
    de-industrialization. I think it's fair to say that the UK never fully recovered fom the devastation, disruption, and population loss from
    WWII. They had a series of post-war Labour governments that didn't help
    and, I think it''s fair to say that the Tories lost their way and the Liberals (classical) pretty much vanished from their national politics.

    They also stopped producing coal, which they largely depleted.

    He's getting the economics wrong. His conclusion is that the only area
    of government spending ro cut is social welfare spending. That's absurd.
    One has to look at every single government program to ask if it's
    intended or unintended consequences are causing more harm than the
    supposed good they are doing.

    He believes that lowering government spending without taking that hard
    look will indirectly lead to lowering cost for business which will in
    turn lead to greater economic activity and hiring.

    Therefore, cut off the social spending first.

    Well, it doesn't work like that. He's deliberately ignoring that he's
    not offering the middle step in his three-part plan.

    Social welfare programs are typically incompetantly administered with ass-backwards incentives. Here's the problem that even Milton Friedman
    got wrong with his Negative Income Tax proposal, which actually got implemented as Earned Income Tax Credit. With income taxes, even with a progressive tax structure, there are huge steps that will trip people
    up. The transition offf welfare, even if gradual, makes accepting
    lower-paid work the trigger for a very high marginal tax given the loss
    of welfare benefits.

    Who would accept a job under that circumstance?

    Also, getting off welfare and into the work force is no guarantee that
    one will have a job paying a living wage to support one's family.

    His proposal is every bit as ass-backwards as welfare itself.

    You cannot state that we'll eventually get around to fixing
    overly-burdensome economic costs by reducing government spending. It's
    too late. Government spending is perverse if payment on the national
    debt exceeeds 100% of GDP, something he already noted. Social welfare spending is part of it but something far worse has happened.

    If you want the economy to recover fully, you don't say that we'll do
    all these things up front to just reduce government spending. Parliament doesn't have the guts and, sorry, can't annul the interest payments.

    But there are plenty of othe ways to reduce burdensome costs and peverse incentives. DO THOSE FIRST.

    If there is economic expansion and more jobs being offered, then social welfare spending will gradally reduce as a positive effect of the
    improved economy.

    But the interest on the national debt cannot be wished away. All you can
    do is stop piling on massive debt next year and then grdually reduce it
    over time.

    He doesn't appear to have either the will or creativity to reduce
    economic burdens up front in a practical way that will work, any more
    than Let's address the very high unwelcome cost of living can be solved
    with ever higher social welfare spending.

    Resurrect the Liberal Party from the dustbin of history would help.

    The Liberal-Democratic Party is very much alive and has 80+ seats in the current Parliament. I'm not sure if that meets your proposal though: my impression is that the Lib-Dems are something of a Labour Lite party.

    But I'm afraid I've done a massive disservice to Rees-Mogg by greatly oversimplifying his message and now you're taking issue with my
    statement of his views as opposed to his. You really ought to watch
    several of his videos that lay it all out *much* better than I did.

    He has been clear that welfare reductions are the top priority but he's
    not unaware of some of the other things you're arguing for and has
    thoughts on some of them. I think I've inadvertently given you the
    impression that he sees welfare reductions as a simple and complete
    solution to Britain's problems and that's a long way from the truth.

    He's especially scathing on Britain's current policies regarding energy
    where they resolutely decline to drill for their own North Sea oil, or
    use fracking to get more out of existing energy sources, while putting
    all their money into "green" energy, which is useless when it's dark or
    the wind isn't blowing hard enough. This is why their energy costs are
    very close to the highest in the world.

    He's very conscious of the national debt, which is apparently 100% of
    GDP right now with little room to grow. He is very aware of bond markets
    and such things and how little tolerance they have for this sort of
    reckless expenditure. He's alarmed by the state of Britain's armed
    forces and urges major expenditures to start to bring it back.

    Here's a slightly longer video where he talks about wealth taxes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZfj9aqQ6Rw [21 minutes]
    --
    Rhino
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam H. Kerman@ahk@chinet.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 18:25:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

    . . .

    But I'm afraid I've done a massive disservice to Rees-Mogg by greatly >oversimplifying his message and now you're taking issue with my
    statement of his views as opposed to his. You really ought to watch
    several of his videos that lay it all out *much* better than I did.

    These are my comments on the cited videos of his that I watched, written
    in folllowup to you. You did not give me the wrong impression.

    If I'm missing something that he has made a clear policy statement that
    the social welfare spending won't lead to an increase in poverty, if you encounter such a video, please provide a citation. I'm not even buying
    that his policies would provide imediate relief in production costs to
    the business sector.

    He's not a Georgist and it's not entirely clear to me that he has fully embraced the lessons of classical economics since I've yet to see such a
    video. His problem statements are spot on, as I would expect from the
    loyal opposition.

    I think I would take that I was in Liz's government off my resume. It's
    bad enough he was in Jojnston's government. The two of them went out of
    their way to set back conservatism.

    . . .
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rhino@no_offline_contact@example.com to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jul 5 15:25:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On 2026-07-05 2:25 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

    . . .

    But I'm afraid I've done a massive disservice to Rees-Mogg by greatly
    oversimplifying his message and now you're taking issue with my
    statement of his views as opposed to his. You really ought to watch
    several of his videos that lay it all out *much* better than I did.

    These are my comments on the cited videos of his that I watched, written
    in folllowup to you. You did not give me the wrong impression.

    If I'm missing something that he has made a clear policy statement that
    the social welfare spending won't lead to an increase in poverty, if you encounter such a video, please provide a citation. I'm not even buying
    that his policies would provide imediate relief in production costs to
    the business sector.

    He's not a Georgist and it's not entirely clear to me that he has fully embraced the lessons of classical economics since I've yet to see such a video. His problem statements are spot on, as I would expect from the
    loyal opposition.

    I think I would take that I was in Liz's government off my resume. It's
    bad enough he was in Jojnston's government. The two of them went out of
    their way to set back conservatism.

    . . .
    I suppose that depends on how you define conservatism....

    I've noticed that Truss is quite visible in YouTube and hasn't slunk
    away into obscurity the way failed politicians so often do.
    --
    Rhino
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2